I do agree with you, Ibrahim, and can't help but recognize the good that certainly comes from religion ... but based on what I've witnessed and experience, that "good" is a very personal thing, a comfort that a person finds. Fundamentally, what irks me about religion is that it alleges that here's a book with the answers and now you don't have to figure anything out for yourself. This DIRECTLY influences people who already have a hard time thinking for themselves and ultimately gives them a hail-mary pass at every actually manufacturing an original thought.

A harsh criticism, to be sure, but if you knew the people I refer to as well as I do, I think you'd appreciate my hostility to religion.

But again, you're right: religion does offer a lot of good and it's those who twist it that make it evil. Which is why I offer the "faith" disclaimer. There are no set guidlines or mandates that shape a person's faith ... faith is the epitome of personal beliefs ... and yes, while a person's faith in something can lead to horrible things, it is THAT sole person who will be held responsible, not a religion that has been crafted and shaped by man over hundreds of years.

I wrote in a brazen tone ... but I do have appreciation and--more importantly--understanding. I live with a Catholic, after all ;)

I love it.

Seriously, it's great to have a debate with people who will honestly contribute to the argument rather than incessantly regurgitate pointless drivel (again, I refer to specific indivduals with the "pointless drivel" remark and by no means is that applicable to either of you.)

To you both, as well as my Catholic house-mate, I tip my hat for helping me see the good that can come from religion. It's easy to get comfortable in a certain mindset ... it's hard to let yourself be open to differing points of view.

It has been my experience that acceptance and tolerance is not the norm among religious people ... perhaps my experience is what is outside the norm?

Tolerance.

We human beings suck at tolerance. See: Obsquatch.

Let's drag him into this before it's too late.

Well, first... wow. Really. Wow.

It seems I've arrived late to this intensely interesting discussion, and as unexpected as it may be... I lean more towards Krumbine's opinion then Ibrahim or Tripp's. Not the all consuming hatred of religion in general, but the personal distaste for the corrupted and disillusioned way in which it is used today. All religions show the same disparity between belief and practice. There have been mass injustices cheerfully carried out in the name of religion more times then I care to count. As long as the church remains so powerful over the influence of human thoughts and actions, the devoutly religious people of the world will have the ability to justify their wrongs in the name of God.


@Krumbine – Don’t be too excited that I’m agreeing with you just yet, because while religion bothers me, so does blatant intolerance. If you want others to respect your lack of religion, you must also respect their personal decision to believe in what they want. Perhaps you and I will never understand the ‘why’ behind organized faith but we don’t need to. Most people need something to believe in. Some way of answering the unanswerable or knowing the unknown. So let them pray for forgiveness to a priest, or recite an ancient storybook as though it was absolute truth. When you say “If everyone's religion is the right religion, that makes everyone's religion the wrong religion” you’re forgetting that the concept of right and wrong is not universal. I don’t believe that gay marriage is wrong. Many people do. Because my opinion is more tolerant does it make it the “right” opinion? I don’t know. And neither do you. You said yourself…“You don't get anywhere in life saying this is right and that is wrong, but learning to appreciate different point of views and why, in fact, people believe different things.” But have failed to realize that your own opinion has clouded your ability to step back and see the whole picture. So leave the generalizations to those less intelligent and take a minute to stop and appreciate that faith is way more complex then you or I (or anyone) will ever fully understand, and each individual has a right to believe. Just as you have a right to NOT believe. Religion has a lot of bad aspects, but a lot of great ones too and as much as I hate to admit it, those great ones are reason enough to continue it’s existence.

@Ibrahim
When you say “all religions, no matter how major or minor, stress first and foremost on doing good and not doing evil. It is MAN who fucks that up and in a misguided desperate attempt to shun evil” I have to point out that it is the same MAN that pushed religion to the forefront of our society. Religion means nothing without followers. Using the excuse “we are only human” is a cope-out. Being human doesn’t give any of us special rights to fuck with anyone else based on personal prejudice. Go tell the man who was stoned to death that it’s okay because the men that threw the rocks believed he was evil. I’m sure he’ll understand.

@Tripp: 100% kudos on pointing out that religion is not the only thing that spawns evil deeds on our society. I was raised Anglican (believe it or not) and have a deep respect for religion, just not for the church. When I do something good, I feel good; when I do something bad, I feel bad. That is my religion. If I’m wrong and I meet God for judgment when I die, I’ll simply tell him it’s his fault, for creating humans with the ability to so heavily distort faith and in doing so, creating my own level of disbelief.

'bine ... your bro looks a lot like Paul Giamatti

everybody should do what makes them happy because when you take a dirt nap, you won't ever wake up again.
A. Chigurh

"As for idiots telling other idiots they will burn in hell because they aren't the same brand of idiots as the first idiots, well.. they're idiots"

... what a perfect summation of this entire discussion! :)

Fellow idiots,

@Ibrahim I think in some ways you and I struggle with a similar dynamic. Our traditions get some bad press because crazy people are standing at the microphone.

@krumbine If you were a magazine editor, who would you rather put on the cover of Time? Falwell? The Branch Davidians? Bin Laden? or...wait for it...some schlub whose just trying to get through the day in prayer and love for her fellow human beings?

True faith is boring. It is. Christianity, for example, when it works, when it's at its best, is dull and virtually invisible. Even Mr. Teresa's mission was unknown to most people until someone uncovered it and thought "Fuckstockings! A Catholic nun is feeding the poor! Who knew?!"

Faith doesn't sell magazines. Get to know the people around you...those not at the damn microphone. You will likely find that the vast majority of religious people are no more or less fucked up and willing to talk about it than anyone else.

@heather Thanks for chiming in. I occasionally pop in on your webpage and think "see, this is good stuff." I think faithfulness is essentially spiritual and not moral. Morality is too fluid, less anchored in generosity and peace than spirituality. What is moral one moment is not the next moment. Moral absolutes may be entirely impossible. Spiritual absolutes, well, maybe there's something there.

@everyone Thanks for not telling me to go fuck myself for being a nosey Baptist.

Caio, tubers! I'll see you around. I gotta write about fear. Oi.

**Walks in wearing a leather thong, plastic light up devil horns, nipple tassel pasties, and fishnets, holding in one hand a bull whip and in the other a half-eaten angel food cake depicting Christ on the cross, and has Jesus Icing smeared all over his face and chest**

Hi, Tripp. What are you doing here? What? Did I miss something? Oh fuck.

@Obsy: YAY! We've been waiting for you ...

@Jimmer: I know ... scary proposition, huh? We don't actually talk anymore, so I sometimes feel obligated to poke at him over the internet.

ugh...religion talk...people never get so het up about something so pointless.

I was aged 9 when I got very confused about being taught about both Dinosaurs and Adam and Eve and asked my Mother whch was right?

Her reply: "I don't know."

I've made my own way ever since, reading everything and anything and taking the best and leaving the rest.

I don't believe god would burn a whole city of homsexuals and then champion a couple of date raping daughters but I do believe you should look at your own faults before the faults of others.

Religion in and of itself does not get to me, FUNDEMENTALISM gets to me and I will never agree with people who choose Dogma above people.

--Camo

Wow, ok.. I wish I got here sooner.

I'm liking this discussion because everyone is maintaining a great air of respect & tolerance for each other and each others beliefs.

This is the thing about religions. Break it down simply : The religion - to it's believer - is a concept that he/she has enough faith in to conduct his/her life by the teachings of said concept. It gives him/her a higher power to lean on, a set of rules or guidelines to look to when he/she is feeling lost. And for most major religions, it gives you a family of sorts and the opportunity to benefit from "fellowship".

I'm not going to pick on any one religion in particular, but I think.. and I hope you all agree with me, that the simplest most positive "idea" of religion - is a good one.

Obviously most major religions instill a certain degree of intolerance.. how could they not? This intolerance is what gives you certainty as it's believer.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me."
That sort of scripture gives the reader faith that "Alright, this is my ticket and I'm CERTAIN of it."

If instead, you read something along the lines of.. "You perhaps could get to Heaven through me, but its not certain.. there could be other paths, and those paths could be better."
You're going to have a lot of lost, and confused people.

Ergo, I can see the need for religion to have a certain amount of intolerance for other faiths..... though it doesn't mean I agree with intolerance - at all.

I wish that there was no need for intolerance in anything - ever. I consider myself a very tolerant person and this is probably my largest obstacle in being a "devout", all-in, believer in anything.

@Krumbine. I see what you're saying about religions controlling what people think, people that were having a hard enough time thinking for themselves anyway. And there's one of my points right there.. Some people have the type of mind that allows them to be independent in faith and comfortably so. (maybe you find yourself in that category).. But there is another type of mind, Jordan.. the type of mind and heart that needs for something more. There are some people in this world that just need for something higher, bigger, and better than themselves to believe in. And I personally don't think that makes them any weaker, or makes the prior type, any more arrogant.

@Ibrahim & Tripp. I have the utmost respect for people who can make a decision on what they believe in and defend it at any opportunity and stay strong to their faith no matter what questions may fuck with their heads. I know that the wind gets stronger the higher up you are on that tree... so kudos to you for dealing with that, on a daily basis.. and deciding still to believe in what you do, on a daily basis. -Ibrahim, your sort of commitment is one you should never be shy about.

So yeah.. Maybe in my perfect world everyone would be tolerant of each other, and we would all spend all of our time laying on sun-warmed grass, giggling... but how boring would that be? Without the passion that is so innately human, who would want to live in a world where everyone was so comfortable being "on the fence"?

My indecision isn't something I'm satisfied with... But my interest learning (eclectically) about what ideas we as humans have faith in, absolutely makes up for it.

I love hearing about all your opinions on here...



PS.
I do consider myself to be Christian - but one who is still learning, and who definitely likes - no, loves, the ideas that some other faiths teach. =)

Blimey, have I missed the party?

Really valuable and interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

I am a confirmed atheist, having made the move from agnosticism about a year or so ago (I think I had actually been an atheist for much longer but had, for some reason, subconsciously not wanted to accept that). I am also Jewish (which I only really grasped was a race of people about 5 years ago - I always assumed it was purely a religion). I attended synagogue a few times in my teens but was left decidedly cold by the whole experience.

I consider myself to be very sensitive of the feelings of those around me - and I have a number of friends who ARE religous - and so I tend not to air, in depth, my atheistic feelings too much but I have been impressed by the honesty and conviction of the comments above so here is my two cents worth.

@Tripp and Kat: Like others in this thread, I totally accept that there IS some good that comes out of religion - a possibly philanthropic set of morals and some kickass architecture to name a couple - but religion is surely just the stimulus here, having an effect on the human mind to produce a 'good' or 'bad' result. In other words it's just a philosophy. I think that's why atheists are filled with bewilderment/bemusement/disgust/whatever at the veneration that religion attains, that other philosophies don't. It is the human mind and the good that it can achieve that should be venerated, not any of the philosophies, religions or moral codes that stimulate it to achieve that good.

@Ibrahim: It doesn't look like Jordan's going to remove your comments but I'm glad of that. I totally understand how you feel but just know that we're all friends here and I personally respect and enjoy your comments, wether I agree with them or not.

@Obsquatch: Your outfit sounds divine (excuse the pun). Are you available for parties, weddings and barmitzvahs?

You're such a sweetie Ibrahim!
I totally understand your 'paranoia' ou there in the harsh world of YouTube but you're safe here - and that's what's really nice: we're all friends here and that allows us all to be a bit more open than we might otherwise be, with no fear of reprisal.

A few people who got here late have already mentioned how the debate so far is long, so I'll probably not mention each point of view or address every idea, but I'll give my $0.02(two cents).

I'm somewhere between atheist and agnostic(by the measure with which most people use) , and was raised christian catholic. I see humanity in general as being a part of the world, a world that exists with or without us. That is to say that our idea of morality exists in only our own societies and minds. I'm of the opinion of that there is no objective truth to be found while we are human, and that all perceptions are subjective. This means that we cannot assume a single truth, as different views of a situation may present multiple truths that are all seemingly correct.

Religion in my opinion is an example of this. There are many, many religions that exist in the world, that attempt to explain why and how the world came about, why we exist, and what we are here to do. I see it that we are living things, like all other creatures, and do not have a more divine nature beyond our sentience, which may not be divine at all, if indeed our idea of divine is created by our sentience.

In any case, I believe that if there are God/s/ess/es, they should, by their very nature, be impossible to comprehend, and to assume that we know or can understand their intentions, plans, or nature at all is rather repugnant. I think whether this religion or that religion, or any other is right or not becomes irrelevant when you look at what the major religions have in common. They can be interpreted differently, but I see that each religion values love, caring, helping and respect, and that these are the things we as humans should be focusing on, not the extra rules or values that lie around them that are specific to each religion(mass, fasting, praying, offerings etc etc).

My problem with organised religion in general however, is not the fact that it states that higher being/s exists, but in the fact that it states that a higher being, with a divinity far beyond our own, can still have human failings that require us to care about it more than the other higher beings we could worship. If God, for example, the semitic God, is perfect, all powerful and has no flaws, then why should he/she/it care so much about whether or not he/she/it is worshipped or revered? After all, vanity is a human failing.

I don't choose to believe in a religion also due to the fact that every religion is governed by humanity to some degree, and that breeds in its very essence, a corruption and greed and power over others that may never be dispelled.

If a religion is led by people or a person, it requires that they impose a will, either theirs as a human or their "God/s" will(which may be similar or different) on other people. If a will other than my own is imposed upon me, I would prefer to reject it and decide for myself.

I do, however, respect the religions of others. For me to believe that there cannot be a single one truth that is correct and discounts all others, I have to consider mine as being wrong possibly too, right? And so I respect all those who believe whatever they believe, as their credibility in my eyes is as good as my own.

I'm thinking I might make a video about this but I'll have to write it out first and make sure it's short enough.

As for people's dislike of religions contrary to their own, I would like to know why it is that any human deserves reprisal for their belief when their belief is only the result of their life experience, family and the environment in which they were raised. We are all the end result of our individual past(s) and shouldn't be judged or ostracised for our beliefs, as we cannot help but believe what we believe.

Most of the time it is not a person we hate, but an idea or an action of theirs that we hate, after all, those beliefs/actions/ideas or lack thereof are only a single part of a person and do not describe them fully. We only consider that to represent the person as a whole because we cannot hate them unless we discount the things we may like about them.

In short, my God won't beat up your God because mine doesn't exist/see the futility in picking fights.